>> cenk: welcome to "the young turks." as you might imagine i'm a little worked up about the hearing on gun control today in the senate. and they got a little fiery as well. >> you missed that point completely. it's basic. >> senator i think you missed it! >> order! >> cenk: i think they all missed the point. all right. we're going to have two great guests on that. former gun lobbyist and then

someone who quit the nra in disgust after newtown. he'll be on the show as well. and then we'll talk about oakland. well, not only is violence bad, but racial discrimination in oakland is so bad recently a mother said this. >> i'm sad and scared to be having a black boy in oakland. >> cenk: she'll be joining us on the show as well. and then finally, in texas you know they were doing the crazy creationism teaching? well, the guy who literally did the movie on that will join us. >> we say on this day, the will be done. >> cenk: some schools in texas are teaching that the universe is missing a day because that's what it says in the bible. we'll try to figure that out on the show tonight. it geese time.

>> cenk: welcome to "the young turks." obviously big hearings on gun control today in the senate. gabby giffords came in when she was not expected to, and of course had emotional testimony. and while her husband was testifying we had another shooting. three people shot in phoenix over a dispute, and the list goes on and on. and we had police chiefs coming in saying let's do something about gun control. guess who was not moved by any of this? of course wayne lapierre. >> we support enforcing the gun laws on the books. there are 25,000 violent crimes a week in this country.

the innocent are being prayed upon. victims all over the country want to be able to protect themselves. criminals don't obey the law anyway. they get what they want. and in the middle is the hard-working law-abiding tax-paying american. people want to protect themselves. >> cenk: nonsense, he knows that 40% of the sales are done through gun shows or off the internet, so they are not tracked. you know who that helps? the criminals. wayne lapierre and the nra loves that, because that means that the gun manufacturers that fund the nra make a lot more money, and then we're all scared of the criminals and we go out and buy guns and then they make more money. so wayne lapierre lives on fear. he literally makes his money off

of fear. but dick durbin stood up to him. >> my problem with background checks is you're never going to get criminals to go through universal background checks. all of the law-abiding people -- you'll create an enormous federal bureaucracy unfunded, hitting all of the little people in the country. pay the fees. pay the taxes. we don't prosecute anybody right now that goes through the system we have. >> senator durbin? >> mr. lapierre that's the point. the criminals won't purchase the gun because there will be a background check. you missed that point completely. and i think it's basic. >> senator i think you missed it. >> let there will order! [ overlapping speakers ] >> please, wait. everybody for a moment. >> cenk: that's fun, but you

want to get a load of something really interesting, it turns out that wayne lapierre did not miss the point. he understood the need back in 1999 . . . >> cenk: now that's of course before the nra started to take massive amounts of money from gun manufacturers and the people who sell high-capacity magazines. all of a sudden what was very reasonable in '99 after getting paid a ton of money, all of a sudden totally unreasonable. let's talk to a guy who has been in the inner circle richard feldman who is a former lawyer and political organizer for the national rifle association, and they are now a little mad at him because of a book he wrote

called "ricochet" and he is starting independent firearm owners of america. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. >> cenk: talk to me about what motivates the executives at the nra. >> well, the nra has a board of directors, and the staff is obligated to do what the board instructs them to do. i looked at the testimony about 13, 14 years ago, and our organization strongly endorses mandatory background checks for the transfer of fire arms at a gun show. gun shows are very different than when you sell a friend or transfer a gun to a relative. you know who you sold the gun to. at a gun show you are just like a retail firearm dealer. you are open to the public and you don't have a clue who you are selling the guns to. that's why licensed dealers put

people through the background checks. everyone should go through that check at gun shows. >> cenk: let me give some numbers to you and the audience. nra contribution money. in 2010 it was $71 million, and in 2004, it was $46.3 million. so you can see the amount they are getting. none members are giving a lot more money in the last six years, and then when you look at the corporate donors they have donated $38.9 million between 2005 and 2011 from 22 different gun makers. richard how influential do you think that voice is when you give almost $40 million to the group? >> that money goes to the nra foundation, and none of that is used for lobbying purposes, or political purposes. it goes to things like the

shooting sports, the museum fund. it's really unrelated to the political aspects of the national rifle association. >> cenk: you think so? i don't think so. and i know you and i differ on our position on gun policy and i know you have the insider's view here, but to me it looks like the money is intermingling. the member money, the money from corporations, and i'm supposed to believe they are not influenced by the corporate money? >> cenk when i worked at the national rifle association 20 years ago, we were told we represent american gun owners. we don't represent the industry. when i ran the industry's trade association, i negotiated the child safety lock deal with then president bill clinton. i stood in the rose garden and made that announcement, and it really doesn't matter whether

it's bill clinton or president obama or wayne lapierre. if it makes sense, it makes sense. and if it doesn't, it doesn't. we need to grow up in the country, and start dealing with the real problems and face them as adults and i think we can and should. and enough with the comments and the back and forth. the problem in america -- and we all agree it's criminals. any criminal with a gun is a bad thing. and there are things we can do to make it harder for criminals to obtain guns and we ought to do them. >> cenk: i want to talk to you about that in a second but i want to finish up this issue. the nra makes a dramatic change -- you pointed to it too, the statements from wayne lapierre from before 2005. in 2005 -- i keep pointing to that year because two things happened.

one they started taking corporate money from gun manufacturers, and they started defending gun manufacturers from lawsuits. so if it isn't the money what changed around 2005 to make that the nra what appears to be far more radical? >> i think you hit it when you said the word appears to be. sure, they can position themselves sometimes, and they have made a few mistakes certainly with some of their ads of late, and that has happened in the past, but if we get right down to it the power of the national rifle association isn't based in their lobbyists in washington, it's based on the folks back home. it's the 4.5 million people that belong to the nra. you don't have to agree with them, but you have to understand -- if you want to understand american politics that the power is based on the folks back home -- >> cenk: richard i got to press

on that a little bit more. because they don't listen to their membership. their membership is overwhelmingly in favor of -- over three-quarters say do background checks. and wayne lapierre says hell know. so why doesn't he listen to the overwhelming number of his members. >> he listens to the board of directors who are elected by the membership. like any democratic organization, there may be times when you differ from the membership, but the membership can change the leadership. just like the most important poll that the congress of the united states should be paying at attention to is the one coming on the first tuesday after the first monday 22 months from now. that's the only poll that really matters. >> cenk: all right. richard, i want you to stay with us if you can. and i want to bring in in the

next segment someone who writ the nra in disgust, and i want to talk to both of you about what should be the legislation, and both of you guys care a lot about guns. that's why i want to have that conversation when we come back from the break. and very proud of that. >>beltway politics from inside the loop. >>we tackle the big issues here in our nation's capital, around the country and around the globe. >>dc columnist and four time emmy winner bill press opens current's morning news block. >>we'll do our best to carry the flag from 6 to 9 every morning. >>liberal and proud of it. what we need are people prepared for the careers of our new economy. by 2025 we could have 20 million jobs without enough college graduates to fill them. that's why at devry university we're teaming up with companies like cisco to help make sure everyone is ready with the know-how we need

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>> tell people to take an ad out to somewhere and those need regulated as well. i think that you know, when you look at weapons for example. there is a reason why it has collapsible stock. there are features of it that make it an assault pep. there is a pistol grip, a feature that reduces the muzzle flash so a person can't see where you're shooting from. there is a vented barrel so it cools faster so you can lose multiple rounds without losing accuracy. you have to say why does someone need something like that in the civilian world. i don't think you need something like that. that's easy to exclude right away. let's keep those military weapons in the hand of the

military police officers and get them off the streets. that's something that i think should be easily agreed upon. >> cenk: richard easily agreed upon. do you agree upon it? >> no, and lee should know better. those are not military weapons. there isn't a military in the world interested in semiautomatic firearms. those aren't machine guns. those are just like any other semiautomatic that's been around for over 100 years. one pull of the trigger. one round is fired. one at a time. just like a double-action revolver, from the old superman movies. faster than a speeding bullet. there is nothing different about semiautomatic firearms. fully automatic guns, well, they've been heavily regulated since the 1930s. and it's-- >> we don't have problems with the fully automatic weapons because they're not in the hands

of people. >> that's true. and if you live in a household without a bathtub the likelihood of a child drowning in a bathtub that doesn't exist that's not the point. >> richard, that's the point. that's always the point. hold on, the reason why i'm jumping in here is people say you need a bathtub. we need to take showers. i'm not at all convinced that we need 300 million weapons that we have in this country. in fact, i'm completely convinced that they do a lot more damage than they do good. in japan they don't have those guns and they have about ten gun homicide a year. we have over 10,000. >> mm-hmm. we have a very different culture than the japanese. >> cenk: yeah, we kill people more. >> we have a society society--yeah, we do, and we can do things about that by moving the agenda

forward. but getting rid of guns lawfully owned by 10 million fellow americans. >> i don't think we're talking about removing the guns from the homes. >> what are you going to do, talk about stopping the future sale? >> yes. >> had a are you going to do with the 25 million semiautomatic, quote, assault weapon. >> cenk: two reasons why i'm not buying your argument. >> what are we going to do, drive by bayonettings. >> cenk: there aren't going to be drive by bayonettings. two points to address your question. number one, australia did it. they did a ban on certain kinds of weapons. they grandfathered them in, but

nonetheless there have been no massacres since 199 6:00. >> good. 19--96. and there have been turn insed in missiles launchers. that doesn't mean we should have more missiles launchers. >> i'm not talking about missiles launchers. i'm talking about weapons lastly ownedlegally owned by civilians. and in australia ownership has grown dramatically. >> cenk: what is the bottom line of what actually could get past here and would be a reasonable legislation. >> i hear what you hear, and i think those three components that we talked about are reasonable. but i'm not sure that we're going to see an assault weapons ban make it through the current

house of representatives. i think that if you limit the capacity of the magazine, then that is in a sense--if you only have ten rounds, it doesn't matter where it's coming out of, it's ten rounds. when you change the magazine you give seem time to flee or fight back. we're talking about how to move the argument forward reasonably. >> do you own a weapon now? >> i do. >> how many? >> three. >> cenk: i don't believe in owning guns. but you do, and you think three is enough, and you don't need an all the weapon. richard, final questions goes to you. why did you start your own group? what is wrong with the nra. >> well, i don't know what is wrong with the nra. i know that our organization, the ifoa we're a very pro-gun group and we're pro solutions to

criminal justice problems. >> cenk: all right richard feldman and dr. lee rogers. thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. when we come back we'll talk to a mom in oakland who is afraid to have a black son in oakland. why? she's worried about stop and frisk, the constant cop abuse and the media showed her story earlier, but pretended she was afraid of the violence instead. we're going to train that story out when we come back. >> it makes me sad because when i found out the gender of my son, i was sad. i'm scared to have a black boy in oakland. 9am eastern. >> i'm a slutty bob hope. >> you are. >> the troops love me. (vo) tv and radio talk show host stephanie miller rounds out current's morning news block. >> you're welcome current tv audience for the visual candy. just be grateful current tv does not come in smellivision.

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>> cenk: now everybody knows the city of oakland has a crime issue. in fact, we had 117 gun deaths there in 2011. that's up from the previous year and that's not surprising given the state of guns in this country. but the priorities of oakland are fascinating. now let me give you a sense of how they compare the oakland raiders with their police department. first, broadly speaking did you know that the nfl throughout the country gets $18.6 billion in taxpayer subsidyies. that's since 1992. that's a giant amount of money going to an organization that already makes a ton of money. they don't necessarily need the subsidy. in oakland they give--the city gives the raiders $14 million a year in taxpayer money.

in fact, over the last 30 years the oakland raiders received $343.3 million. but meanwhile oakland has a deficit or they did in 2011 of $32 million. so they got to get the money from somewhere. they can't get it from the radarrers. where do they get it from? the police department. the police department is now down 18%. they lost 138 officers, 80 of which were fired. guess what happens to crime after that. look at that, murders up 16%. rapes up, 24%. burglaryies up, 43%. what in the world is going on in this country when our priorities are so screwed up we don't even do the core governmental function of protecting our citizens. how did oakland react to this? they wanted to bring in someone that had success elsewhere they say, and that's bill bratton. they'll pay him to consult their police department. some people were not happy with

that. let me show you the ab 7's report on that. >> bratton is exactly what we don't need in the city of oakland. >> one of bratton's crime- crime-fighting tools is the controversial stop and frisk, a tactic that enrages. in new york during bratton's tenure there were 7,000 stop and frisk stops a year. bratton said it's a effective tool. >> cenk: well, in new york city new york city is less than half minorities as a percentage of the population, but nearly 90% of the stop and frisks are on minorities. now one of the people concerned about that is jessica holly. she's pregnant, soon to be mom in oakland. she spoke and said this. >> i'm really sad that we're considering bill bratton as an alternative or as a solution for this consulting team.

it makes me sad because when i went to find out the gender of my son. i almost cried and i had to force a smile. i tried to talk about this before. i can't because i didn't want to cry. i'm sad and scared to be having a black boy in oakland. it's not just because of bill bratton. we already have very racial policies being implemented. we call them by everything other name but what they are, racial profiling. for me to say that i'm black and i'm a criminal and hooligan, and when i cuss a little bit i offend people and i'm a hooligan. i'm an educated speaker but i can't always find the words that would be more appropriate and socially acceptable to show my rage without offending people. sometimes i hope that i'm offending you so you can understand the hurt that i have even if you can't be in my shoes. >> reporter: cbs took that and said she had been scared to have a black son in oakland because

of all the violence in oakland and used it to get more get-tough policy by the police. there seems to be a monumental misunderstanding by her speech. so we brought her on. jessica holly. thank you for coming on "the young turks." we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. >> cenk: talk to me about what your real intent was. what are you concerned with bill bratten. >> my wheel intent when showing up at the city council meeting that evening was to express my mistrust for bill bratton. the fact that not only had i visited new york, but i know people in new york who claim his policies are extremely racists especially the stop and frisk which results in unnecessary amount of minority individuals being jailed or held guilty for crimes even though they may not have been guilty of those crimes. i showed up to the city of oakland to express that, and to let them know once again that not only is the oakland police department guilty of racial

profiling of extremely racist policies but i had caught several of them on film within a three-month span last year. this message was drastically misconstrued by cbs which resulted by my appearance on today's show, and it was also ignored along with over 400 statements and opposition against the contract that night when the city council hayesly voted at the block i'll use desley brooks' words in that way. for the measure of an urban city with high demographic of minorities citizens. >> cenk: jessica, how do we handle the problem of criminal in oakland without discriminating against people in oakland. >> the policy of a loose description of a black man wearing a through t-shirt where

in oakland that describes 25% of the population depending on the color of the shirt to stop using those types of descriptions as an adequate justification for pulling out loaded weapons on innocent citizens walking down the street would be one thing. but also to reinvest our community's ability to sustain itself. you know if people were able to meet the basic tenants of life and survival to be able to provide a roof over their head, to feed, clothe and educate their children, if jobs were available for people who have not had the opportunity to obtain an associates, bachelor's or masters degree, then at that point we would see crime reduce. they put more beat cops out on the street. they don't have a significant crime lab. they have a low percentage of detectives if any that work with the police department. you have people being arrested on the street because of the

individual bias of an officer who may or may not think that these people are guilty. you're taken to jail, and given a very busy, overworked public defender to try to represent them who probably has not had time to read their case prior to them entering court. we're not effectively stopping crime. we're criminalizing everyone in the community and using that method as a way to say hey desperate people of oakland who are looking for a solution, we found one. we're getting people off the streets, but we're not necessarily getting the criminals off the street. >> cenk: jessica on the one side you're saying the experience of african-americans in oakland where the police come in and question them whether they did something wrong or not. but what about the other side of the equation. what is your experience with cops responding to crime and helping the citizens in that light? >> okay, i don't actually have a very good experience with the police helping me as a citizen. particularly i use my mother as an example.

someone was breaking into her house at 1:30 in the morning when she was home. she called the police department and said when she turned her lights on they still kept trying to come in. they were trying to enter the hours while they could hear her on the phone with the police. she was told that they do not have anyone available to come to her home at 1:00 in the morning. however, if i you know, rolled through a stop sign i could potentially and more than likely have four police officers that each in individual squad cars behind me. or using a small ampfied system, then we have 60 riot police available. there is political motivation behind the actions of the police department and they're definitely not most concerned about the protecting and serving the citizens of oakland regardless of how much we pay their salaries or for the misconduct lawsuit that continuously seem to happen.

coincidentally we had two of them voted on that same night when we spoke about brat as soon as that's the most frustrating part for me. they justify the stops and frisks, and constantly haranguing people by saying we're here to do something about crime. but actually crime we're too busy what's the point? >> exactly. jessica holly is fighting back in oakland and we appreciate you coming on "the young turks." >> thank you so much. >> cenk: all right. when we come back, texas wanted to instruction creationism in the school. there was a documentaryien who made a move about it it's a fascinating story about what they actually do teach in schools. we'll tell but that when we come back. >> the high school classroom is no place to fight the culture wars. what you're discussing now is if you impeach the denigration of evolution, to promote creationism through the back door.

>> cenk: we're back on "the young turks." do you remember when texas tried to teach creationism in the schools? well there is a documentary called "the revisionaries" and it won a special jury prize at the tribeca film festival. let's look at the trailer. >> the high school classroom is no place to fight the culture wars. what you're discussing now is if you'll impeach the creation of evolution and promote creationism through the back door. >> we stay on this day your will be done in public education once again. >> i like to believe that we're living in the spirit of the christian religion governed by christian principles. >> it will change the face of our state for decades to come. >> with we've won. we are turning education in a

vastly different direction. thank you. [applause] >> cenk: scott thurman, the filmmaker behind the movie now joins us from austin, texas. thank you for coming to "the young turks." thank you for joining us. >> hey. >> cenk: they tried to push this agenda through what happened next. >> what they were working on were the standards for the essential knowledge and skills. those standards do two things. they guide teachers in the classroom, but they also determine what text book publishers have to meet for the text books. so right now actually the boards' starting that process of the text book review process. but what we followed is the standards review process, and they do it subject by subject and i started in the science, and as the movie shows we followed the social studies and

history standard after that. >> cenk: what were some of the examples of what they wanted to put in the text books? >> well, the big argument in science was over a language called strength and weakness. they wanted to teach the strength and weakness of all scientific theories. but scientists recognize that as creationist inspired language, specifically the weaknesses. and informed board members and moderate people on the left to counter it. in the last minute of this review process far-right members brought new language that was analyzed and evaluated which a lot of scientists argued was the same thing but this appeased the moderate board members and got the majority vote. they passed slightly creationist creationistic language over that overall broad look in looking at

the strength and weaknesses, or in this case, to analyze and evaluate the scientist evaluation. i think our indirect contact with the discoverry institute and this history of creationist political movements that went from intelligent design to teach the controversy to now okay we can't get our own views in there, we're going to at least water down evolution. we saw that new political argument happen in texas with the science standard. >> cenk: scott, i know that unrelated to that, they now have done other things in texas. they did an elective court where they teach crazy things about how the universe is missing a day because of the bible passage of the sun stopping for a day. they teach that the earth is 6,000 years old. they're only posed to teach what is in the bible but they're teaching it as if it's true and

making stuff up about it. when i look at it i'm always amazed. when you're watching that fight where do the people of text stand? do they think, no, no, they're 6,000 years old and you wacky liberals are trying to bring in facts that aren't true. how do they feel about this whole fight? >> well, i would like to think that a majority of texans want sound science in the classroom. the big difference of what you're talking about these bible courses that are elective courses. they're not science courses so it does give a little bit more freedom for teachers. they're mandated by law not to bring in their own religious views. not to promote a specific religious view in these bible courses, but from the very beginning in 2007 when the bill allowed for these courses they knew there were going to be problems with religious individuals that are going to take advantage of these courses. and part of the problem was that the courses weren't specifically

laid out enough. so where it allowed some of these teachers to come in and give a little bit more of their specific religious views. it's partly a problem of funding. >> how does the conflict get resolved in that i'm sure a great majority of people in texas believe the bible and probably believe their pastors that tell them their interpretation of the bible, etc. but at the same time that's not what science says, and they do want to teach their kids real science. how does that get resolveed? >> i think they need to vote. the bottom line, more people need to pay attention to the board of education and they need to vote. they need to use that right to put people in there that will make sound decisions and rational decisions.

and lean to experts and educators in the field to inform them of best possible education for our kids. >> cenk: all right scott thurman, thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate it. >> thanks, cenk. >> cenk: absolutely. thank you. now when we come back, michael shure, political correspondent makes an epic prediction. did he get it right? we'll show you. and a man has an idea in tennessee, if your kids are getting bad grades, they'll take welfare away from you. how did that turn out for them? >> first off i'm not setting the bar that the kids have to become rocket surgeons.

desmond tutu said a quote that is one of my favorite quotes. "we are tied together in a web of humanity. i am a person only through you. i can only be a person only through you." that really resonates me and drives my work. the world is becoming an incredibly connected place. mobile phones are really driving that connection. at kiva, we run an internet marketplace. people can lend to other people for the purpose of starting a small business, going to school or a variety of other good causes. you can go to kiva.org and you can see pictures and profiles of people from over sixty countries all across the world. you can lend them as little as $25. if they are successful, they will pay you back.

dear rixi, you're a honduran immagrant. you're coming to the us, you have an idea to start, you know, a women's cosmetics store or a clothing store. you're going to need a lot of things, ya know, to pay the rent, permits inventory, advertising, marketing so that adds up quite a bit. you're going to need tens of thousands of dollars to start a small busines. there is ten million-plus people completely left out of the formal finical system. banks don't lend to people like that at all. there is a lot of opportunity to decrease unemployment, provide employment, provide economic opportunity and raise our standard of living by investing in small business. our hearts are an incredibly powerful thing. good technology can help amplify this power and create an incredibly powerful force that can spread to every country in the world.

>> cenk: we've got all "the young turks" here. ana kasparian, jayar jackson michael shure joins me. speaking of michael shure i asked michael yet who might be the new interim senator from massachusetts, and he had this prediction. >> i can give a really dull answer to who i think it's going to be. >> cenk: go for it. >> has former chief of staff mo cowen. >> really? how did that turn out? let's look at that. >> it's my honor to introduce to you mo cowan. >> it's hard to be humble with a buying nightbig night like that. that's a big night. >> cenk: i didn't see anybody else predicting that. you nailed it.

it might have been dull, but it's correct. it's not that dull. first time ever in united states history that we have two black senators. >> and one is from south carolina. i'm guessing senator cowan when he gets there will not agree a lot with senator scott. >> cenk: perhaps the most conservative senator in the country right now. stacey campfield had an interesting idea. if your kids don't do well in school, we're going to take away some of your welfare money. >> unfortunately, we have some families who really don't care about education. they don't care if their kids get an education or stay in school. what we're saying is if your kid is quitting school, not showing up showing up at 11:00 in his pajamas, that's not a prepared kid for an education. we need to motivate these parents of how important the education is.

and all we have left is this cash payment that they make to these families. >> cenk: martin bashir did lay into him and i don't think it's an insane idea. here i am being in the role of the most conservative on the panel. >> it is an insane idea for a number of different reasons. you can't put all this pressure on a child because if he or she doesn't perform well in school, then the parents respect going to have anything to eat that month. i disagree with that 100%. but the worst part, these are the same individuals that are defunding public education. they're creating an atmosphere, an environment where it's even more difficult for students to succeed because teachers are overworked and underpaid. they're not getting the materials and textbooks that they need to succeed. it's a vicious cycle they're under funding it. >> cenk: i totally agree with your point accepted by the court. no objections. >> this is glossing over other

problems. you have single mothers single fathers, people working all the time. it could be be a multitude of records but we'll layout this blanket argument that your parents aren't doing enough. i know he mentioned something about if you have actual learning disabilities, but what if you have issues that you're not addressing, or taking them to doctors. we just talked to jessica holly about how the environment through our police is making it stressful for people just to live. she doesn't know what she's going to do with her son when she has him. you're often put in a situation where third is school is the third and fourth thing to think about because you're just thinking about eating and getting by. >> cenk: i hear you but we have the teachers and students and the parents are probably the most important part of the puzzle. he's trying to address it, and

would this motivate parents to get involved? it probably would. >> if you demean them by saying we're giving them a cash payment. welfare is not a cash payment for people who take it. a lot of people take it reluctantly because it's the last resort. a lot of people take it because they're lazy. there is a segment of people who do take it. that's going to happen in society. not everything is going to be perfect. but for this guy to penalize the kids in this way the families, what happens if you take the money away from those families? what is going to happen? what's going to happen, answer that question. >> cenk: the kids are going to get straight as. i have to show the last clip here because he proved your point for you. watch what he said here with bashir. >> first off we're not saying the bar like the kids have to become rocket surgeons. we're talking bear bones. >> cenk: rocket surgeons? perhaps we ought to take some of his salary away.

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